Subject: Stretcher Wong Author: Question Date: 3/31/2005 5:03:03 PM IP: 217.166.51.88
Is there anybody who knows more about the Open Kung Fu Tournament in 1957 in Which Wong Shun Leung appeared as a fighter and lost in the 1st round? He was carried out on a stretcher. Are there any photo's/video's from that fight? Someone who can find this in the Hong Kong newspaper from 1957?

Subject: Re: Stretcher Wong Author: Liddel Date: 4/1/2005 8:48:47 AM IP: 210.54.6.58
The closest youll get for pics is super 8 film as tv and video were pretty scarce in 1957, so that means you need to know someone that was there and that they were filming it ! Whod you hear this story from ? are they reliable ?

Subject: Re: Re: Stretcher Wong Author: Canton Date: 4/1/2005 9:55:53 AM IP: 4.229.66.11

Here is the main source for peoples' info on this. Beleive it or not. "Jan 05, 2003 08:02 GMT-5, Paletta Wong Ming wongming_at_hotmail.com wrote : Stretcher Wong Wong Shun Leung was a legendary "bogus" fighter and his so-called unbeaten record of over 100 fights in closed-door "Talking Hands" matches are only spread by word of mouth in the hypocritical Wing Chun society. There are no evidences that most of those fights had actually happened in the 50's. However, in the 1957 Open Kung Fu Tournament in Taiwan, Wong Shun Leung had proved himself to be a real bogus fighter in his first and only elementary match. Wong Shun Leung was seriously hurt and was carried out by a stretcher. In fact, he was the only competitor who had to be carried out by a stretcher in the tournament, and HE WAS THE FIRST MAN WHO HAD TO BE CARRIED OUT BY A STRETCHER IN WING CHUN HISTORY. What a disgraceful legend!! Nowadays Wong Shun Leung is regarded as Stretcher Wong, and Stretcher Wing Chun is popular as a result of wrongful publicity. Stretcher Wing Chun disciples are all hypocrites, and they are making false statements about Stretcher Wong and publicizing them through various media. Those bullshit statements are as follows: "In one such match, arranged by a reporter working for a prominent Hong Kong newspaper of the day, Wong (who stood barely 5ft 6in tall and weighed in at around 120lbs) easily defeated a visiting Russian boxer named Giko, a giant of a man who weighed over 250lbs and stood some twelve inches taller than the dynamic Wing Chun exponent." http://www.wingchunkuen.com/wsl/readings/articles_legend.shtml "So successful was he that the local Hong Kong press picked up on his exploits and one enterprising reporter (now a resident in Australia) actually went out and arranged fights for him against non-Chinese as well, including a 250lb Russian boxer named Giko!" http://home.vtmuseum.org/articles/peterson/wongpers.php ".....arranged by a reporter working for a prominent Hong Kong newspaper of the day, Wong (who stood barely 5ft 6in tall and weighed in at around 120lbs) easily defeated a visiting Russian boxer named Giko, a giant of a man who weighed over 250lbs and stood some twelve inches taller than the dynamic Wing Chun exponent." http://www.wingchun.org/text/misc/blwong.html "He tested his skills in a countless number of real-life encounters on the streets and roof-tops of Hong Kong during the 50? and 60?, emerging undefeated each time. Sifu Wong almost single-handedly raised the profile of the relatively unknown martial throughout Hong-Kong and earned the name "Gong Sau Wong" or "King of talking with the hands". " http://www.wingchunkuen.com/wsl/index.shtml "...they were full-on fights between representatives of the various schools of combat in Hong Kong, and Sifu Wong is said to have "let his hands do the talking" by winning the majority of these "contests" within just three punches!" http://www.wingchunkuen.com/wsl/readings/articles_legend.shtml "Bruce Lee credited Wong with hundreds of victories, but conservative estimates suggest something along the lines of at least 50 to 60 such matches, with Wong always emerging as the winner. " http://home.vtmuseum.org/articles/peterson/wongpers.php My GM William Cheung has once shown me a 8mm movie showing that he was beating up Stretcher Wong in a close-door match. Wong Shun Leung is helpless and badly beaten in the movie. What a bogus fighter! In fact, many people in the Hong Kong Kung Fu world have watched it as well. If you want to buy the footage and photo of Stretcher Wong lying on a stretcher or copies of the 1957 Hong Kong newsapapers, please call 852-62732230. Also, if you want to learn more about Stretcher Wong, you should visit http://www24.brinkster.com/wongshunleung/"

Subject: Re: Re: Re: Stretcher Wong Author: Liddel Date: 4/1/2005 12:03:53 PM IP: 210.54.6.58

I think thats a bit sad to tell the truth. Even if we were to believe that he lost many fights, which is quite probable given the human factor of exageration. Why dweel on the negitive, he still won lots of fights and was a very proficient fighter. I am of Lok Yiu lineage so have no bias towards Fifu Wong, my Sifu had trained along side WSL as the assistant to Lok Yiu and his 'first hand accounts' of WSL exspressed to me,was that WSL was very good fighter and won lots of fights that my master was present for. I think everyone should compare situations codes etc to relate acomplishments. Boxing - Tyson was an animal in the ring, he lost. - Foreman sledge hammer hands, he lost. - Ali said to be the greatest ever by some, he lost. Pride - Royce/Enzo Gracie awsome full contact fighters, they've lost. - Sakuraba japans best ?, he's lost. UFC - Tito Ortiz, lost at one time. - Chuck Liddel,he's lost the list goes on. Good fighters loose fights too, some people say this means thay are not good, but i just think it makes them better. Bottom line - could the negitive people say they have done any better ? all probabilities say No way in hell. ill stay open minded i hope you do too.

Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Stretcher Wong Author: QUESTION Date: 4/1/2005 3:10:08 PM IP: 217.166.51.88

Well, it's not about trying yo put someone in a negative way. I believe WSL was great too. For me it's just a question if this has ever really happened. Anyone who could get a Hong Kong newspaper from 1957 in the biblio? Further, you mention, with all respect, that WSL won lot's of fights. Where is that proove? Again, without a negative tone, I never saw any proove of that... Anyone has the pictures? Of 8mm? Someone from William Cheung?

Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Stretcher Wong Author: dumbo Date: 4/1/2005 7:34:02 PM IP: 195.92.67.77
"you should visit http://www24.brinkster.com/wongshunleung/ " That link doesnt work you fool ,wheres your proof?

Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Stretcher Wong Author: QUESTION Date: 4/1/2005 8:45:45 PM IP: 217.166.51.88
I did not mention that link. Why swearing allready? Pathetic. Just discuss, if you cannot dicuss, don't react.

Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Stretcher Wong Author: Canton Date: 4/2/2005 2:52:14 AM IP: 67.37.80.85
Anyone try that phone number that is listed? I think it may be in Australia.

Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Stretcher Wong Author: QUESTION Date: 4/3/2005 4:11:24 AM IP: 213.73.211.222
No answer to that phonenumber. The e-mailadres of the woman Palette Wong also no anser. Anyone has some more information?

Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Stretcher Wong Author: Liddel Date: 4/4/2005 5:53:36 AM IP: 210.54.6.58
I totally underdstand what you mean, My proof is my master's first hand accounts so thats enough proof for me, where as you and i are just strangers so, yeah sorry ive got none to offer you, keep looking, good luck.

Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Stretcher Wong Author: Aragorn Date: 4/5/2005 12:18:34 AM IP: 66.166.50.66
If you ask a sincere question, you will find good-will people to answer it. Since you start asking with a very insulting and ingratitude title to a great WC pioneer's lifetime love and labor, don't expect any forthcoming answer at least from me.

Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Stretcher Wong Author: QUESTION Date: 4/5/2005 10:23:54 PM IP: 217.166.51.88
Sorry, it was not to insult. Totally not. I am just wondering if this whole story is gossip or that it is true. Only proof will be in the 1957 newspaper of Hong Kong I believe or someone who know anymore of this. I believe WSL was a great Sifu. Do you know more about the story?

Subject: Re: Stretcher Wong Author: Aragorn Date: 4/6/2005 2:01:57 AM IP: 66.166.50.66
I accept your sincere apology. Wong Shun Leung to my knowledge did not deny the fact that he got injured in this tournament in HK. His opponent according to one source was one of Chiang Kai Chek's personal bodyguards who successfully took WSL out with a very heavy kick in this tournament.

Subject: Re: Re: Stretcher Wong Author: QUESTION Date: 4/6/2005 2:44:08 AM IP: 213.73.211.222
Thank you for your answer. Do you know if this has happened in 1957 or 1958? Do you think there are photo's from it in those HK news papers? There's very little known about this fight, so that's the reason I was wondering. Maybe you know a site or place where there's been spoken about this event by some WSL lineage?

Subject: Re: Re: Re: Stretcher Wong Author: Aragorn Date: 4/6/2005 3:43:17 AM IP: 66.166.50.66
I don't know the exact year of this tournament in Tai Wan. Perhaps David Peterson or Rolf Clautwitzer can help you out on this if you e-mail them.

Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Stretcher Wong Author: QUESTION Date: 4/6/2005 2:58:07 PM IP: 217.166.51.88
Thank you, I will try to contact him, also to keep this low profile.

Subject: Re: Re: Re: Stretcher Wong Author: Dave Date: 4/19/2005 1:28:36 AM IP: 84.107.16.251

Well, what if you find that picture or film? What are you going to use it for? You want to prove Wong lost some fights too? You want to dishonour him in some way? Anybody can lose a fight, somebody who doesn't fight has lost already. Wong is still the King of talking hands. Even if you show the picture, that doesn't say anything of Wong's credibilities. Do you think Wong has won from Leung Sheung for example? No, even Wong had stronger opponents. Especially in his own learning period. Or was he already Gong Sau Wong when he was born? Quit searching for this bullshit, non-saying picture. Have some respect for him. He's dead, he can't defend himself. And...as far as I know, HE DID NEVER claim, he never lost a fight.

Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Stretcher Wong Author: Liddel Date: 4/19/2005 7:43:57 AM IP: 210.54.6.58

My Sifu was a good friend of WSL in the 50's and 60's, i remember a story told to me about WSL at the first international kung fu competition in singapore about end of 1950's early 60's ( i cant remember exactly) where he was beaten by a kick in retaliation to his running punch. Of course he lost fights, but my master always reminds us that he was a very very good fighter. Quit searching, we know he lost some fights, all fighters loose fights, but we dont care because it doesnt mean he wasnt good. Ali lost on more than one occasion but we all know he was the best.

Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Stretcher Wong Author: QUESTION Date: 4/19/2005 10:41:09 PM IP: 217.166.51.88

(((Well, what if you find that picture or film? What are you going to use it for? You want to prove Wong lost some fights too? You want to dishonour him in some way?))) Where do you get the idea that I want to dishonour him? That's not the point at all. Why are you so offending? I only was curious if this fight ever happened. What's the problem to know this? What's the problem to have that picture? Do you think I will put it on the internet and make 10 websites talking WSL was a bogus fighter? Well, it's a pitty you cannot just even ask something without having Ving Tsun defending themselves (well, at least you from VT). I allready told WSL is a real inspiror, a great fighter, a great sifu. No disrespect at all. I get the idea of you to be afraid when this comes out, while it IS nothing important. It was only a simple question without bad meanings to it... (((Quit searching for this bullshit, non-saying picture. Have some respect for him. He's dead, he can't defend himself. And...as far as I know, HE DID NEVER claim, he never lost a fight.))) You are really furstrated. Again, I have no bad meanings at all. You think it's bullshit, for me it's just a piece of knowledge. Maybe this forum just wasn't the right place to ask this question. If anybody would like to contact me and discuss in a normal way, please do! My e-mail adress is: wongshunleungwingchun@yahoo.com

Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Stretcher Wong Author: Aragorn Date: 4/20/2005 12:54:57 AM IP: 66.166.50.66

I sense no bad intention in Question so I think Dave was off in his response. But Who can blame him? Wong Shun Leung is a ordinary person with a extraordinary determination. We like him so much because in him we see ourselves. Let us go forward with malice toward none and charity toward all. A Warrior? Creed I have no parents: I make the heaven and earth my parents. I have no home: I make awareness my home. I have no life or death: I make the tides of breathing my life and death. I have no divine power: I make honesty my divine power. I have no means: I make understanding my means. I have no magic secrets: I make character my magic secret. I have no body: I make endurance my body. I have no eyes: I make the flash of lightning my eyes. I have no ears: I make sensibility my ears. I have no limbs: I make promptness my limbs. I have no strategy: I make ?nshadowed by thought?my strategy. I have no designs: I make ?eizing opportunity by the forelock?my strategy. I have no miracles: I make right action my miracle. I have no principles: I make adaptability to all circumstances my principles. I have no tactics: I make emptiness and fullness my tactics. I have no talents: I make ready wit my talent. I have no friends: I make my mind my friend. I have no enemies: I make carelessness my enemy. I have no armor: I make benevolence and righteousness my armor. I have no castle: I make immovable-mind my castle. I have no sword: I make absence of self my sword. ~ anonymous 14th century samurai

Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Stretcher Wong Author: David Peterson Date: 5/30/2005 8:25:58 AM IP: 210.15.233.220

At the urging of very senior members of the Yip Man Wing Chun Fraternity in Hong Kong, who are outraged by the deflamatory remarks that have been directed at my late Sifu, I am hereby attempting to set the record straight on this matter. Without mentioning specific names or personal matters associated with this incident, the simple truth is that Wong Shun Leung entered the tournament in question, which took place in Taiwan in 1957, in less than his best physical condition. Leading up to the event, he had been "led astray" by a younger WC brother who was at the time seeking to learn from my Sifu, and whom had managed to distract my teacher from his normal training regime. Prior to this time, Wong Shun Leung was fully established as the fiercest and most successful fighter in the WC Clan, if not in all of Hong Kong. His exploits were regularly reported in the newspapers of the day and his ability as a fighter was common knowledge. To cut to the chase, Wong Shun Leung was actually WINNING the fight in question and had totally overwhelmed his opponent, despite not being in peak condition, and he had knocked his opponent down when he was himself injured. As his opponent fell, his legs flew upwards, one of them striking my Sifu in the lower abdomen, severely winding him and causing painful muscle spasms. As a result, the fight was awarded to the opponent on a technicality because he was able to return to his feet, whilst Wong Shun Leung was not. Yes, he was carried from the ring on a stretcher, but was not, as has been claimed, knocked out and defeated - he had already knocked his opponent down! As was stated by my Si-Bak Gung in Hong Kong, as far as those of his generation are concerned, Wong Shun Leung was NEVER beaten and this particular event, in their eyes, does not constitute a loss at all. As a postscript to these comments, my teacher NEVER laid claim to being anything other than a teacher and follower of the WC system. All the titles and accolades have been bestowed upon him, including the title of 'Gong Sau Wong'. Funny thing is, no one ever challenged his prowess when he was alive - all of the "attacks" have only come since his passing - it is sad when you consider how much he contributed to the development and fame of the art. Perhaps if those who are so quick to judge, question or criticise had met him, they might change their mind and recount their accusations. Wong Shun Leung was a gentleman, a scholar, a family man and a great teacher - he didn't boast, slander others or make false claims, ...but he could sure kick butt. Those who were around at the time all know the truth. DMP

Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Stretcher Wong Author: QUESTION Date: 5/31/2005 7:33:03 PM IP: 217.166.51.88
Thank you very much for this normal reply. That was really all I was asking for.

Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Stretcher Wong Author: Creepy Date: 6/1/2005 10:07:13 PM IP: 168.143.113.47
<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>> Oh stop bellyaching Wong LOST he was DEFEATED that is a technical KNOCKOUT just grow up no bull 'i was duped by an evil student into being a lazy bastid and didn't train' ACCEPT IT AND BE A MAN JUST LIKE WONG DID NO EXCUSES!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Stretcher Wong Author: David Peterson Date: 6/5/2005 11:53:19 AM IP: 61.68.164.100

Creepy, I am NOT offering an excuse, merely attempting to clarify an incident so as to stop the bad-mouthing of my late Sifu which has been going on of late. Yes, he LOST the fight, and yes, HE made no exceuses for it - that's who he was! However, there are those out there who would seek to re-write and re-interpret history so as to take credit away from those who deserve it and bestow it upon those far less worthy. If I was in a position to go into greater detail on this matter, there would be some very embarrassed and angry people. As it stands, on behalf of my seniors in Hong Kong who wish this posthumous "bashing" of my Sifu to stop, I have offered the background to the incident, detailed the circumstances of the "defeat" and wish to allow my Sifu to rest in peace and for his reputation as a great teacher and exponent of the art to remain unsullied. Surely you can accept that and now leave the matter to gather dust. There is no honour in striking the dead. DMP

Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Stretcher Wong Author: Creepy Date: 6/6/2005 10:58:41 PM IP: 168.143.113.44

oh cut the garbage out mr pete and repeat you make too many excuse if you ACCEPT then YOU TAKE GOOD AND BAD period!!!!!!!!!!!!! go grumble and whine in private!!!!!!!!!!!! NO EXCUSES no flak no bull no whine no YOU JUST TAKE IT WONG LOST DEAL WITH IT everybody lose sooner or later WHO THE F*** CARE what people say BUT YOU DO that is very DEFINITION of make EXCUSES if you want to explain what happen but no excuse then you say truth and truth is BAD LUCK was not good day for wong none of this garbage you blubber!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! wong would beat s*** out of you and you brothers for this just because you baby afraid what other people think WONG DID NOT CARE otherwise he never go to fight maybe you dont fight so good that why you need INVINCIBLE wong IMAGE for your body instead of not worry and go get you own image leave history to judge GOOD and BAD wong not in heaven praying for spin doctor

Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Stretcher Wong Author: Aragorn Date: 6/7/2005 3:51:23 AM IP: 64.17.250.10
Why so much personal animosity? Just state your objection to DP's post without your creepy undertone. __________________________ "Men tend to have the beliefs that suit their passions. Cruel men believe in a cruel God and use their belief to excuse their cruelty. Only kindly men believe in a kindly God, and they would be kindly in any case." Bertrand Russell

Subject: Re: Re: Re: Stretcher Wong Author: gravnie Date: 4/16/2009 3:01:44 AM IP: 72.82.48.208
The question is NOT whether WSL lost the fight. (He's Dead) But whether YOU can fight. (You're NOT)